About the speech
The speech will draw on RBNZ research from 4 Analytical Notes which will be published at the same time.
These insights revolve around:
- where inflation is being generated within the CPI basket currently (domestically generated inflation, especially services),
- what is driving this inflation pressure (more supply-side driven, especially via labour),
- how strongly and how this pressure is translating into headline inflation
- what will drive inflation down in future.
Note: There will be no update on the state of the economy since the May Monetary Policy Statement.
Right. Thanks Paul. We've got a lot of questions so we will try and get through as many as we can. Have the papers released today changed your understanding for how inflation is likely to evolve going forward? If so, in which direction?
Paul
That's a good question. Em research, you have your priors, you have an understanding of how the economy works and one piece of research, yeah, it'll update priors around that aspect of how the economy works. I don't think it's a radical change, I think it's more an evolution in view based on research rather than a fundamental kind of shift. I think for example, the Phillips Curve paper, it gives us increasing confidence that what we are doing with the economy and definitely in a slow patch that is going to work, that is going to bring down inflation and we sort of knew that was the case. The Phillips curve is well established, it's sort of a mainstay of contemporary macroeconomics discovered by a New Zealander economist Peter Phillips by the way. So the researcher sort of gives us confidence in our framework and at the margin it will change our view here or there. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by in which way, depends on what aspect we're talking about.
James
The next question is from SGK. Paul, given that growth has been negative for four of the last five quarters, unemployment is rising, thousands of young New Zealanders are leaving for Australia and you are forecasting inflation back inside the target banned by year end. Isn't the level of restrictive policy now doing real damage to the New Zealand economy?
Paul
Thanks SGK. Our job is to get inflation back to the midpoint or back to the target with a focus on the midpoint. And yes, we are definitely in a period where that is causing that mission is causing the economy to grow more slowly than it otherwise would, but so we are experiencing some short run pain. The idea there is that the gain of low and stable inflation is going to be worth it. In terms of New Zealand is leaving for Australia, I do think there's still a bit of pent up desire for OE overseas experience there and the extent to which people are fleeing or are sort of trying to move to a better performing economy. And I note recent media saying is the grass really greener in Australia? But the extent to which the New Zealand economy is not doing as good a job as it possibly could of increasing wellbeing of New Zealanders, you have to be really clear on what the role of monetary policy is or is not in that. So monetary policy, it's very much about the business cycle.
We try to sort of mitigate the business cycle so that we keep inflation low and stable. That sort of structural growth in the New Zealand economy, the sort of linked to monetary policy there is that low and stable inflation over the long run is the best contribution that we can make. But yes, absolutely policies that would increase productivity, that would increase average incomes over the medium to long term In New Zealand that's more where you need to look for those sort of long run structural factors. New Zealand's productivity growth is not as high as it is elsewhere and I think at the margin that can be a magnet for young kiwis looking to improve economic outcomes for their whanau but think hard before jumping.
James
Next question is from David Tripe. To what extent can some of the domestic sources of inflation be attributed to responses to climate change insurance and local body rates to some extent and switches of supply of services from central government to local government. Would this justify ignoring these for monetary policy assessment?
Paul
Yeah, so climate change, obviously cyclone Gabrielle and we talked about this in the speech, it did put a sort of upward pulse through food prices and that is part of the reason why inflation has been higher than it otherwise would over recent years. And I think climate change off the back of that climate event insurance premiums have been going up and that's common after the Christchurch earthquake insurance premiums went up. So this sort of an increased realisation of the risks of life in New Zealand, the shaky isles and also of the impact of climate change whether cyclones are going to be an ongoing feature. So that's sort of the underlying or the more structural drivers of things like insurance premiums and I said they're sort of less sensitive to changes in monetary policy and the extent to which that is a relative price shift. It's just something that needs to happen because we've sort of had this realisation about risk to the extent that it's a relative price shift, then absolutely monetary policy, we do look through that.
That only becomes an issue for monetary policy if it feeds into higher cost structures and higher inflation and higher inflation expectations more generally throughout the economy, that's when monetary policy needs to lean against that. The other point I'll make David with this question is that even if you strip out things like rates and insurance, et cetera, et cetera, inflation pressures are still widespread across the New Zealand economy. Yes we are making good progress. It's nowhere near as bad as it was a couple of years ago, but that figure showing that 40% of CPI items went up by 4% by, sorry more than 5% at the first quarter of this year. It shows that inflation pressures are broader than just those non tradables that are extremely impervious. It would seem to monetary policy. So there's still a job to pull that down and I will acknowledge the economy is changing rapidly at the moment. That's Q1 inflation data, really looking forward to Q2 inflation data but we don't get it for a good few weeks. Be good if we had monthly inflation data.
James
Thanks Paul. Next one is from John Smith. Do households have the time RBNZ needs to lower housing inflation? We are heading for six quarters in a row with low growth. Don't you think it's particularly dangerous to make short-term monetary policy adjustments looking at revisions of longer term parameters such as potential GDP?
Paul
I'm not sure I understand that question. I don't get the bit about do households have time? Can you just repeat that James that sentence? Yeah.
James
Do households have the time RBNZ needs to lower housing inflation?
Paul
Alright, I think you're sort of talking about households are getting stressed with higher interest rates and you're wondering if they can hang in there until inflation does sustainably go back to target? Yes, is the answer to that. When you look at, I fully acknowledge that the New Zealand economy is in a slow to no to negative growth phase. As someone said four out of the last 5G DP quarters have been negative. We get an update on that tomorrow. So yeah, it's challenging, but again we have confidence that that is going to get inflation sustainably down. When you look at measures of financial stress, yes they are increasing but they're still relatively low. So we don't see financial stability as meaning that we can't do the necessary with monetary policy. And what was the second bit of that question?
James
It was asking about the dangers of making short-term monetary policy adjustments looking at revisions of long-term parameters such as potential GDP
Paul
Potentially, but I think you might be referring there to the fact that in our main Monetary Policy Statement, we revised down our projections for productivity growth in the New Zealand economy. Basically based on recent data. New Zealand's productivity performance recently has been even worse than normal. So that meant we reduced our potential output growth in the New Zealand economy. That's not a huge shift in our projections at the margin. It means capacity pressures are a bit higher than what we thought they were, but it's not, I don't think we are making short-term monetary policy decisions based on changes to long run parameters such as potential output. I mean it's better than the alternative of not sort of revising your view on these long run parameters. We have to do that as we learn more about how the economy operates. It would be remiss of us, negligent of us not to sort of be constantly updating our models. But yeah, I fully take your point and I sort of push back, I don't think we are making monetary policy decisions. It's about tradables inflation, core inflation, everything I've talked about in the speech, everything we talk about in the NPS and at the margin we've had that reduction in productivity growth projection.
James
Next question is from curious George, if Bryce is in love your work,
Paul
George, my boy used to love your stuff.
James
If rises in insurance premiums and property rates which are relatively price and elastic keep inflation above 2%, will you require other prices to deflate to compensate or will you accept an inflation rate of say 2.3 to 2.5 following this? At what point will concern over rising unemployment and no growth outweigh the benefit of getting inflation to two from say 2.5?
Paul
Yeah, thanks George. You are curious indeed like inflation and rates to the extent as I was talking about earlier, to the extent that they are relative price shocks or shifts, then yes, we will look through them and we would tolerate inflation being at 2.2 or 2.3% as a result of those relative price shifts. But relative price shifts, they don't go on forever, they just do their thing and then generalised inflation pressures will fall back to our target midpoint if inflation expectations are well anchored. So the beauty or one of the beauties of our flexible medium term inflation framework is that it does allow us to accommodate those types of shocks, those types of relative price shifts. They're very front and centre at the moment because everybody's, well, we're all talking about it, but as I've said, it's generalised inflation pressures in the New Zealand economy that we're leaning back against.
So we're not holding the OCR at 5.5% because of those relative price shifts. We see inflation pressures as being more generalised across the economy and as people adjust their expectations as persistence and inflation decreases, or let me put it another way, the sooner people start to base their economic decisions and behaviours on a low inflationary environment, which is what we're moving into, then the sooner those generalised inflation pressures in the economy decline and the sooner interest rates or the OCR at least starts to fall. We're in a really interesting moment currently where what we call the output gap. So it's capacity pressures in the economy is broadly balanced. We think the labour market is sort of somewhere around maximum sustainable employment. So it's why do we need spare capacity to emerge in the economy? And the answer to that is we essentially need to do that to sort of ring those generalised inflation pressures out of the system.
And part of that process is people adjusting their inflation expectations downwards. So workers in terms of wage demands, wage increases? Yes, absolutely as long as they're based on productivity improvements. And from a business perspective, I sort of said during the speech it has been a relatively easy time to increase prices because people don't notice in an inflationary environment, but we are moving out of that environment so businesses need to adjust to a new inflationary environment. And I talked about a lower propensity for businesses to make large price increases. That's the stuff we're pushing back against, not those relative price shifts.
James
The next question is from up the Waz Warriors fan, go the was Paul, do you think you can cut rates as soon as you get into the band or do you think you will need to see CPI print in the band a couple of times before you have the confidence that you can reduce the OCR?
Paul
Yeah, disappointing game on Saturday they started really strong and then Wilford, I thought they were going to sort of topple the top of the table but they didn't get there in the end. But anyway, we all know they can and hopefully they will In terms of when interest rates are going to start to fall, there's nothing sort of mechanistic about it. It's not a sort of when inflation equals this, then we can do that. We take a really broad read across the economy. Our monetary policy statements are really detailed. We look at everything to give us the confidence that inflation will be sustainably back in the band and we are just not there yet. But no, I can't sort of give you the magic formula for when interest rates are going to decline. All I can suggest is read the monetary policy statement, they're excellent documents and it's all laid out there, what the path forward looks like and what that means for interest rates.
James
Next question is from Hamish Pepper. Given this research and recent data, have the balance of risks for your forecasts shifted at all? Does that have any implications for the MPCs reaction function or regrets analysis?
Paul
Yeah, as I said earlier, I think a lot of this, the analytical notes and our research function more generally, I'm just delighted we are really cranking out some research now. It's really helping the MPC get our heads around inflation dynamics. So yes, we are constantly updating our view based on research, based on the data. I'm not sort of going to talk about the balance of risks going forward because save that for the MPR coming up and more so for the August MPS side. I don't want to get ahead of that process. I can't really talk on behalf of MPC when MPC hasn't done the mahi. So yeah, all of that's coming up. Hamish,
James
A question from Jason. How much of an impact on inflation are sustained price increases in insurance and local body rates expected to have?
Paul
I don't have that number off the top of my head. I'm miss you Rebecca. She would know that but significant actually, Jason, I can get back to you on that. We can sort of get back to you on the impact of those relative price shifts on inflation. So yeah, hopefully we've got your email there.
James
Question from Ben. Did the research estimate the contribution of the rapid increase in house prices on inflation?
Paul
No, we have done research on that. That's the sort of, we talk about a wealth effect. So as house prices increase, and we saw this over the pandemic, one of the reasons that demand was strong over the pandemic was because the value of people's houses, or the price I should say of people's houses was going up for various reasons. That was actually my first speech at the reserve bank 18 months ago was all about what was happening in the housing market and that was based on a big tranche of research that came out with that speech as well. So I refer you back to that speech and that material to get a good handle on the impact of changes in house prices on inflation. I will say the housing market that's been going sideways lately. So those wealth effects, they're not pushing up inflation currently would be my assessment
James
Question from El surprise that the stop in tourism and international education during Covid wasn't mentioned. I would've thought that this would've reduced our exports, which would devalue the kiwi dollar and increased imported inflation.
Paul
Yeah, we talk about that a lot again in MPS and I think my last speech, I touched on tourism as well, so it came to a standstill over the pandemic when borders were closed and had a huge, there's a huge hole in New Zealand services exports over that period like goods exports of goods. They were pretty flat over covid but they didn't fall anywhere near as much as services export. So yeah, that did really reduce export performance. It's part of the reason why our current account deficit increased in terms of the exchange rate effect. You need to think about exchange rates as sort of what's going on here relative to what's going on everywhere else in the world. And one of the sort of defining features of the pandemic, that shock has been common across countries. So all countries have been going through broadly similar macro dynamics. We're starting to get a bit of divergence now as that covid shock sort of works its way through the system. But the New Zealand dollar exchange rate, it's bounced around a bit but it's been surprisingly stable over the last couple of years and I think a big part of that is because that shock has been common across country. So those kind of cross country relativities changing as much as what they did prior to Covid and what they're likely to do going forward as well.
James
Next question is from too high, too long, whatever happened to the road back to target range ie 1 to 3%, it seems your message is to sustainably achieve 2% now.
Paul
Yeah, that's just the legislation. Our target is 1 to 3% with a focus on 2% too high, too long. That sounds like a dodgy weekend.
James
A question from G, you've stated restrictive policy is necessary, but to what degree is the level important at this point in the cycle? Real rates continue to increase and will do so for the remainder of the year. Should rates not be adjusted lower to a level more commensurate for the balance of risks?
Paul
That's a long question. That's long.
James
I'll just give you the first part of that one.
Paul
Okay, there's more is there?
James
Yeah, right. Let's do the first bit first. Alright.
Paul:
Okay, again, sort of cutting to the issue of when an interest rate's going to fall. And again, I'm just going to sort of push back and say there is no simple answer. I think it's interesting as inflation comes down, is that equivalent to real rates going up and should nominal interest rates kind of follow inflation down, but then real rates, how are you measuring real rates? They should be based on expected inflation and over what time period are you measuring expected inflation current year or five year or 10 year. So there's many, again, there's not a simple sort of response to that question. Read the MPS and it's got a lot of detail in there in terms of what needs to happen for interest rates to fall.
James:
Part of part two and then we'll move on. Similarly, how much can you rely on your forecasts for read on spare capacity emerging in the labour market?
Paul:
Actually we put out an analytical note or a discussion, babe, I can't remember on this by Chris Ball not so long ago. Looking at a range of different indicators of labour market pressures. I can't remember how many there were. It was double digits anyway, like 15 or 20, something like that. And it's actually a standard graph in the monetary policy statement. We sort of put a heat map of where those various indicators of labour market tightness are relative to their sort of median. And what you find is a lot of them do tend to move together. They tend to be quite correlated. So I think on balance out of that work, out of our labour market indicator suite, I actually think we've got quite a reasonable read on what's going on in the labour market. So I actually feel pretty confident that we've got a good read on the labour market.
I do think the New Zealand economy is not measured particularly well. My last speech was about the importance of good data. So I take your point that sometimes it can be difficult to tell what's going on in the New Zealand economy because our data gets revised quite a bit and can sort of come out with a lag. We sort of try and make up for that by looking at other sort of alternative sources of data. So there's always going to be room for improvement. Absolutely. But I do, my sense is that we've got a reasonably good understanding of what is going on in the labour market. So I do feel confident that that is giving us a reasonable read in terms of what should be happening with inflation going forward and interest rates.
James:
Next question is from Natalie. How much weight should we be putting on non tradable inflation compared to tradable when setting the OCR?
Paul
Yeah, thanks Natalie. In terms of our remit, it's about headline or overall CPI inflation. But because we're always looking ahead, what we do with monetary policy today affects inflation 18 months to two years into the future. So when you're projecting annual headline, CPI inflation, all of that short run volatility, it sort of drops out of it. So headline and core inflation become quite close to each other and we saw in one of the graphs that core and non tradables inflation also, they tend to sort of broadly move in a similar way. So those indicators of medium term inflation pressures are very important in terms of the conduct of monetary policy, which is not to say we just disregard high frequency volatility in inflation. We've been talking a lot about drivers of high frequency volatility in inflation and it's not as if we ignore tradables inflation. All of that is really important context, but it's really those medium term inflation pressures that set the scene at least or set the backdrop for what's going on with monetary policy. And that's partly or largely because we're a medium term inflation target as are many central banks. That's the best way of doing it.
James
But we're almost out of time, but I'll throw a couple of quick ones at you. Dave asks, does a higher OCR meaning higher interest rates actually influence CPI upwards where there are things like rent where things like rent are concerned, for example, landlords passing on higher costs?
Paul
No, no. Rents are going up strongly at the moment because our population has been growing at near 3% and we're not that great at building houses. So increased demand for rental accommodation is showing up as increases in price. This idea that higher interest rates increase inflation, Turkey sort of thought that for a long time and ended up with inflation around 80 or 90%. The Phillips curve work that we've been doing that I've spoke about that relationship between capacity pressures in the economy, which are influenced by interest rates and inflation, it's very well established and well-known globally that higher interest rates translate into lower inflation.
James
Next question is from Dan Brunskill with inflation mostly in select services. Should consumers expect to see stable prices for most goods on shop shelves today?
Paul
Yes, I think that's true. There is a lot of non tradables. I didn't really talk that much about the service sector inflation, but a lot of non, there's quite a bit of overlap there between non tradables and because by their nature it's challenging or it's tricky to trade services internationally. I think the technology is changing that and I actually think exporting services is a huge opportunity for New Zealand given our geographic economic geography being remote and all of that. But because there is that sort of overlap between services and non tradables, whereas goods tend to be more tradable globally. And we have seen tradables inflation come down to almost pre pandemic levels. So we are seeing a split. It's also coming out of the pandemic. Demand for services really surged. So it was about going out for dinner and there's a whole heap of market services in there. So yeah, we are seeing a bit of a dichotomy, the kind of remaining kind of holdouts in terms of inflation reduction. It is a non tradables and a fair chunk of that will be services. And I think we're seeing that. I think food price inflation came out not so long ago. It's a good as the lowest it's been for X years. I can't remember the number, but it was good. It was gratifying, reassuring.
James
And a quick follow up from Dan, when you begin to cut rates, how soon will the real economy experience that looser monetary policy?
Paul
We've got this thing again, it's well established that interest rates take about 18 months to two years to influence inflation. But the influence, there's quite a transmission sort of channel from interest rate changes to inflation. So if we change the OCR markets, react virtually instantaneously, and then interest rates get into those kind of wholesale interest rates, get into retail interest rates eventually. So then consumption and investment at the margin do increase off the back of that and then 18 months to two years later it gets into inflation. So that process takes time. Again, I don't have a sort of X quarters into the future. Growth will improve, but there's kind of a cascading series of events working through the real economy for interest rates to influence inflation. So less than 18 months to two years, I guess is the answer.
James
Paul, we're out of time. It's gone 10 o'clock. Wonderful. Over
Paul
To you. Okay, thank you everyone. I hope that was useful. Please do engage with the research. Tell us what you think, read the speech. Thanks very much for tuning in. I really enjoy talking to you like this. I think it's really sort of democratic and accessible, so cheers for that. Kia ora, everybody. And ka kite.
Speaking engagement: 5.30pm, 19 June
Chief Economist Paul Conway will join a panel discussion with the Bank of New Zealand and clients, at their Wellington headquarters. Mr Conway will refer to his speech delivered earlier in the day. There are no separate published notes for the panel discussion.
More information
Download the speech (PDF, 1MB)
This speech follows on from speeches given at the start of 2024:
The Monetary Policy Remit and 2% inflation
The importance of quality research and data
Media contact
James Weir
Senior Advisor, External Stakeholders
Mobile: 021 103 1622
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